INTERVIEW | Church is with people, not against environment: Archbishop Cardinal Baselios Cleemis

By Express News Service

Major Archbishop Cardinal Baselios Cleemis Catholicos of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church is one of the most powerful figures in the Christian community. His is a voice that is listened to attentively in political circles. On Christmas eve, he talks to TNIE about his experiences of being a religious head in today’s India.

Excerpts:

Would it be wrong if we say that we are sitting in front of one of the most powerful bishops in India?
There are many others who are more powerful than me. I am just one of the bishops.

Even political leaders look up to you. A recent example is the crucial role you played in resolving the Vizhinjam agitation…
While being a religious head, I am also a socially-conscious person. The Vizhinjam agitation was a genuine issue of the fisherfolk and had to be addressed. It was not an issue of the Christian community alone. But as the agitation prolonged, the situation was getting out of hand and it was leading to religious polarisation. It was ominous for society. So I felt I had to do whatever was possible to find an amicable solution. I am happy that I could be of help.

Are you happy with the outcome?
I am happy that I could bring both sides to a reconciliation. But that is only the first step. The real work lies ahead and I am hopeful that both the government and the community will collaborate for the betterment of all.

There is a perception that the Latin diocese was forced to withdraw from the struggle despite the fact that the government did not agree to their demands…
A few may think so. But you just imagine what could have been the situation if there had been no discussion? How long can one sustain an agitation? One has to be realistic… Of the seven demands, six have been agreed to. We have formed a monitoring committee to see to it that the promises are kept.

How did you enter the scene? Did the chief minister ask you to?
I had discussed the matter with the chief minister several times. But nobody specifically invited me to intervene. I knew everyone wanted a solution… So I did what I had to.

After the Vizhinjam agitation, the state is now witnessing an agitation over buffer zones. On both issues, the Catholic Church is playing the role of the opposition. We got to hear a provocative statement regarding shedding blood…
It’s not the official statement by the Church. There is a difference between what the Church says and what is said by an individual.

The gravity of the statement increases when Thamarassery bishop says it…
Yes. However, we have to understand the context in which the statement was made.

But isn’t it similar to the provocative statement by a priest on the Vizhinjam issue?
It’s an issue about people who are directly affected by buffer zones. They fear that it may become a do-or-die situation. In such a situation we can’t say how people will react.

But as Church heads, they are responsible for preventing a situation from turning violent. When the bishop makes such statements, how will other community members feel?
Our attention should be on the plight of the people. We should not focus on one odd statement. We should understand why people make such statements. Should we highlight a mere slip of the tongue or the gravity of the situation? You are trying to distract attention from the real issue here, and I don’t agree with that. Why can’t you see the intensity of the issue? It’s the real pain faced by the people.

Isn’t the satellite survey done as directed by the Supreme Court? Every state is doing it and the buffer zone is something unavoidable from an environmental perspective…
Yes, that I admit. But where will all these people go? Who is to be given priority… People or animals?

Isn’t the Church misleading the people? We all know nobody will be evicted…
Why aren’t these farmers not being taken seriously? They are not encroachers. We are sitting in Thiruvananthapuram and discussing the plight of poor farmers. For that, a proper survey needs to be done.

Isn’t ecological balance a serious issue? Especially after two major floods?
Why has the plight of these people not become a concern for you all? Kerala should adopt the policy of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka on the issue. If Kerala’s position was zero buffer zone, no one would have opposed the government.

Is it the demand of the Church?
It’s not an issue of the Church. This is not an agitation by the Church. The majority of the people living there are farmers. The Church has just taken up people’s issues.

Isn’t there a contradiction in the Church’s demands in Vizhinjam and the buffer zone? In Vizhinjam, the church was for protecting the environment, but here the Church has taken a contradictory position…
I think you have a preconceived idea that these people have to be evicted. Why are we giving more value to tigers than human beings? In fact, there ought to be a proper and objective verification as to whether we should provide so much space for animals, at a time when there’s an utter lack of space for humans.

What is the Church’s demand? No buffer zone?
Have we made any commitment to protect all tigers in Kerala? Let them go to other places too. Let there be connectivity between forests. We have made ample corridors for tigers. Shouldn’t humans live here?

There’s a pattern in the agitation against the Gadgil Committee report and the current agitation… There is a perception that the Church is against environmental protection.
You don’t have to put a new label on the Church. The Church is trying to help and stay with people on the issue. But it is not a stand against the environment.

You are very close to CM. Have you spoken to him on the issue?
He’s aware of the people’s concerns and is very serious about addressing them.

Let’s move to another topic… Nowadays in all religions, some have become extremely religious while some others have become non-believers. How does the Church see this?
What’s the issue with it? Everyone has a right to choose. However, the Church does not endorse religious extremism. There is a difference between being religious and being spiritual.

You have a Kalvilakku here with Om and Satchidananda ya Namaha written in the Bishop’s house…
Satchidananda is not restricted to Hinduism. It is the explanation of God. Om is our traditional representation. The architecture you see here belongs to our collective past. To wear this cross is my obligation. But I have the right to choose to wear it in a rudraksha chain. This is the dress code (saffron robe) of our Church for the bishops.

Have you ever been appreciated for wearing the rudraksha?
There are a lot of people who have appreciated this. Some have objected to this as well. Wearing this is not against Christianity. It’s about being more at home from an Indian perspective.

Is it a deliberate move to imbibe the Bharatiya culture?
Yes. It was a deliberate decision. This is more for being at home too.

Have heard that you insisted that the national flag be kept at St John’s Cathedral at Tiruvalla…
Yes, I did. There is the papal flag, the national flag and Catholic Church’s flag.

Has the Catholic Church in Kerala ever felt that there has been a decline in the number of nuns?
Oh yes. In the case of priests, we have not faced much difficulties. Yes, the number of children in families has come down. There has also been lots of negativity when it comes to religious lives. But when people hear or see something scandalous, that has a negative impact.

People like Sr Lucy Kalapurakkal and Sr Jesme have raised allegations against the Church. Do you think such controversies have affected the prospects of the Church?
Yes. They are absolutely free to talk. There will be two or three people who are outspoken. In most convents, there are scores of nuns who serve in silence. There are sufferings and strains. But is there a life without strain?

Don’t you think the issues they raise should be addressed?
If there are genuine issues, they should definitely be addressed. But why do people believe it is always the other way around? Sometimes it is exaggerated in a particular scenario.

How can this be addressed?
Whenever an incident arises, we try to give detailed explanations that take time to reach the majority. I don’t think it is possible to convince everyone.

Christians are a minority in the country. Do Christians feel safe in today’s India?
The Christian community has always felt safe in India because of the protection provided by the Hindu community. We have always felt at home. Now the distance between communities is increasing. That is a sad thing.

Has this happened due to the current political milieu?
Is there anyone who doesn’t take pride in Mother Teresa being a proud citizen of the country? She is an Indian woman held in high esteem. She did not baptise anyone. There has never been an accusation of conversion against her. But today, certain people speak differently against her. The rhetoric has only worsened the gap.

Recently, we have been hearing the term ‘Chrisanghi’… Have you come across it?
It is something which I don’t like to hear. Such words belittle people. We all have an exceptionally good title ‘Indian’. What else can substitute such a beautiful word?

Muslims are increasingly feeling insecure here…
India is a place where everyone can live in harmony. Sikh population makes up only a percentage of the country’s population. But the nation saw a Sikh President at the Rashtrapati Bhavan. All Indians are proud of A P J Abdul Kalam. Whether he reads the Quran or Bible or Gita is immaterial.
 
How do you look at what happened to Stan Swamy?
If human rights violations have happened in his case, it is not fair. At that age, what was he going to do against those in power? No one should be alienated in our country.
 
The Christian community has always been a vote bank of the Congress for quite some time. However, there has been a shift in this in the last two elections…
People are free to choose for their good. Anything that’s beneficial to the state should be done. Let them vote for the good. Why should we get ourselves branded?

But the Catholic Church had taken an aggressive stand during the ‘Liberation struggle’…
There was a reason then. But why should we be enemies on a permanent basis? There is no need to remain stagnant over a matter that is done and dusted. Does that mean Church is no longer anti-Communist? Why should the Church keep a permanent enemy?

So, you mean to say the Church supports no political party?
If someone does something good for society, why should we be reluctant to acknowledge them, irrespective of whether it’s Pinarayi Vijayan, Oommen Chandy or Narendra Modi?  
 
The BJP has been trying to make inroads into Kerala and for that it needs support from the Christian community. Last week former DGP Jacob Thomas told us that Christians would vote for the BJP…
It is his evaluation. I am no one to counter or substantiate it.

But is there an increasing affinity towards the BJP among the faithful?
I believe that we should be open to talks with anyone.

So there is no untouchability factor against BJP now?
The Church doesn’t practise untouchability against anyone. We have always been here. Our ancestors are Hindus. That’s a historical fact. We are Indian Christians and we have been living together in harmony for 2,000 years.

Earlier it was there… The question is whether there is a change in that mindset…
That’s what I am trying to make clear. Earlier, we maintained a distance with communists. This was done vis-à-vis the BJP too. But nowadays, no political party is untouchable for us. We don’t keep anyone separate from us.

It is said the Muslim community is being increasingly made to feel like they are outsiders…
That very thought itself is not Indian…When India and Pakistan play a match, I will only root for India. As a Cardinal, I am part of the Pope’s advisory board who is the head of the Vatican, an independent nation. But I am a citizen of India first. I salute the Indian flag first.

There have been instances of churches being attacked in North India…
There could be some issues in some villages in India. But in the name of that, we will not hoist any flag other than the Indian flag. That’s our identity.

So you see no issues in communicating with the BJP…
I believe that dialogue is the only solution. When my predecessor Major Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios spoke to RSS leaders at Aluva, it created a lot of hue and cry. But then he asked, “Is there any way other than engaging in a dialogue?” Jesus himself had said, “to go and talk.”

We can see a shift on the part of the Catholic Church regarding the BJP…
Once, Jana Sangh had only two MPs. Now the country is ruled by the very party. If we don’t talk to them about what we are or what we have been doing, how will they know? If the rulers don’t know what we are or what we have been doing for the country’s good, how would that translate into the good of society? We are ready for dialogue. Situations have changed. We should realise it.

Has there been any progress due to such dialogues?
The Prime Minister went and met the Pope in the Vatican as a result of these communications.

When the UDF was in power, the Church had good access to the government. Do you get the same access with the LDF too?
We have the same access with the LDF too. We have the freedom to speak to the chief minister directly on our issues. He’s very attentive. And he has the willpower to take decisions and implement them.

There have been demands that appointments in aided colleges should be handed over to the PSC. How do you look at it?
These institutions came into existence based on certain conditions. It should be followed. Unlike in government institutions, the entire administrative expenditure is met by the management. The government has not been providing any financial help, other than salaries.

It’s Christmas Sunday… What’s your message to the readers?
The core of Christmas is that God decided to reveal himself. The word used for the purpose is Emmanuel – God is with us. It’s like the Indian concept of ‘Aham Brahmasmi’.  When God is with us, there will be major changes in our mindset and attitude. So Christmas is for all to celebrate…

<br /> Major Archbishop Cardinal Baselios Cleemis Catholicos of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church is one of the most powerful figures in the Christian community. His is a voice that is listened to attentively in political circles. On Christmas eve, he talks to TNIE about his experiences of being a religious head in today’s India.</p> <p>Excerpts:</p> <p>Would it be wrong if we say that we are sitting in front of one of the most powerful bishops in India?<br /> There are many others who are more powerful than me. I am just one of the bishops.</p> <p>Even political leaders look up to you. A recent example is the crucial role you played in resolving the Vizhinjam agitation…<br /> While being a religious head, I am also a socially-conscious person. The Vizhinjam agitation was a genuine issue of the fisherfolk and had to be addressed. It was not an issue of the Christian community alone. But as the agitation prolonged, the situation was getting out of hand and it was leading to religious polarisation. It was ominous for society. So I felt I had to do whatever was possible to find an amicable solution. I am happy that I could be of help.</p> <p>Are you happy with the outcome?<br /> I am happy that I could bring both sides to a reconciliation. But that is only the first step. The real work lies ahead and I am hopeful that both the government and the community will collaborate for the betterment of all.</p> <p>There is a perception that the Latin diocese was forced to withdraw from the struggle despite the fact that the government did not agree to their demands…<br /> A few may think so. But you just imagine what could have been the situation if there had been no discussion? How long can one sustain an agitation? One has to be realistic… Of the seven demands, six have been agreed to. We have formed a monitoring committee to see to it that the promises are kept.</p> <p>How did you enter the scene? Did the chief minister ask you to?<br /> I had discussed the matter with the chief minister several times. But nobody specifically invited me to intervene. I knew everyone wanted a solution… So I did what I had to.</p> <p>After the Vizhinjam agitation, the state is now witnessing an agitation over buffer zones. On both issues, the Catholic Church is playing the role of the opposition. We got to hear a provocative statement regarding shedding blood…<br /> It’s not the official statement by the Church. There is a difference between what the Church says and what is said by an individual.</p> <p>The gravity of the statement increases when Thamarassery bishop says it…<br /> Yes. However, we have to understand the context in which the statement was made.</p> <p>But isn’t it similar to the provocative statement by a priest on the Vizhinjam issue?<br /> It’s an issue about people who are directly affected by buffer zones. They fear that it may become a do-or-die situation. In such a situation we can’t say how people will react.</p> <p>But as Church heads, they are responsible for preventing a situation from turning violent. When the bishop makes such statements, how will other community members feel?<br /> Our attention should be on the plight of the people. We should not focus on one odd statement. We should understand why people make such statements. Should we highlight a mere slip of the tongue or the gravity of the situation? You are trying to distract attention from the real issue here, and I don’t agree with that. Why can’t you see the intensity of the issue? It’s the real pain faced by the people.</p> <p>Isn’t the satellite survey done as directed by the Supreme Court? Every state is doing it and the buffer zone is something unavoidable from an environmental perspective…<br /> Yes, that I admit. But where will all these people go? Who is to be given priority… People or animals?</p> <p>Isn’t the Church misleading the people? We all know nobody will be evicted…<br /> Why aren’t these farmers not being taken seriously? They are not encroachers. We are sitting in Thiruvananthapuram and discussing the plight of poor farmers. For that, a proper survey needs to be done.</p> <p>Isn’t ecological balance a serious issue? Especially after two major floods?<br /> Why has the plight of these people not become a concern for you all? Kerala should adopt the policy of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka on the issue. If Kerala’s position was zero buffer zone, no one would have opposed the government.</p> <p>Is it the demand of the Church?<br /> It’s not an issue of the Church. This is not an agitation by the Church. The majority of the people living there are farmers. The Church has just taken up people’s issues.</p> <p>Isn’t there a contradiction in the Church’s demands in Vizhinjam and the buffer zone? In Vizhinjam, the church was for protecting the environment, but here the Church has taken a contradictory position…<br /> I think you have a preconceived idea that these people have to be evicted. Why are we giving more value to tigers than human beings? In fact, there ought to be a proper and objective verification as to whether we should provide so much space for animals, at a time when there’s an utter lack of space for humans.</p> <p>What is the Church’s demand? No buffer zone?<br /> Have we made any commitment to protect all tigers in Kerala? Let them go to other places too. Let there be connectivity between forests. We have made ample corridors for tigers. Shouldn’t humans live here?</p> <p>There’s a pattern in the agitation against the Gadgil Committee report and the current agitation… There is a perception that the Church is against environmental protection.<br /> You don’t have to put a new label on the Church. The Church is trying to help and stay with people on the issue. But it is not a stand against the environment.</p> <p>You are very close to CM. Have you spoken to him on the issue?<br /> He’s aware of the people’s concerns and is very serious about addressing them.</p> <p>Let’s move to another topic… Nowadays in all religions, some have become extremely religious while some others have become non-believers. How does the Church see this?<br /> What’s the issue with it? Everyone has a right to choose. However, the Church does not endorse religious extremism. There is a difference between being religious and being spiritual.</p> <p>You have a Kalvilakku here with Om and Satchidananda ya Namaha written in the Bishop’s house…<br /> Satchidananda is not restricted to Hinduism. It is the explanation of God. Om is our traditional representation. The architecture you see here belongs to our collective past. To wear this cross is my obligation. But I have the right to choose to wear it in a rudraksha chain. This is the dress code (saffron robe) of our Church for the bishops.</p> <p>Have you ever been appreciated for wearing the rudraksha?<br /> There are a lot of people who have appreciated this. Some have objected to this as well. Wearing this is not against Christianity. It’s about being more at home from an Indian perspective.</p> <p>Is it a deliberate move to imbibe the Bharatiya culture?<br /> Yes. It was a deliberate decision. This is more for being at home too.</p> <p>Have heard that you insisted that the national flag be kept at St John’s Cathedral at Tiruvalla…<br /> Yes, I did. There is the papal flag, the national flag and Catholic Church’s flag.</p> <p>Has the Catholic Church in Kerala ever felt that there has been a decline in the number of nuns?<br /> Oh yes. In the case of priests, we have not faced much difficulties. Yes, the number of children in families has come down. There has also been lots of negativity when it comes to religious lives. But when people hear or see something scandalous, that has a negative impact.</p> <p>People like Sr Lucy Kalapurakkal and Sr Jesme have raised allegations against the Church. Do you think such controversies have affected the prospects of the Church?<br /> Yes. They are absolutely free to talk. There will be two or three people who are outspoken. In most convents, there are scores of nuns who serve in silence. There are sufferings and strains. But is there a life without strain?</p> <p>Don’t you think the issues they raise should be addressed?<br /> If there are genuine issues, they should definitely be addressed. But why do people believe it is always the other way around? Sometimes it is exaggerated in a particular scenario.</p> <p>How can this be addressed?<br /> Whenever an incident arises, we try to give detailed explanations that take time to reach the majority. I don’t think it is possible to convince everyone.</p> <p>Christians are a minority in the country. Do Christians feel safe in today’s India?<br /> The Christian community has always felt safe in India because of the protection provided by the Hindu community. We have always felt at home. Now the distance between communities is increasing. That is a sad thing.</p> <p>Has this happened due to the current political milieu?<br /> Is there anyone who doesn’t take pride in Mother Teresa being a proud citizen of the country? She is an Indian woman held in high esteem. She did not baptise anyone. There has never been an accusation of conversion against her. But today, certain people speak differently against her. The rhetoric has only worsened the gap.</p> <p>Recently, we have been hearing the term ‘Chrisanghi’… Have you come across it?<br /> It is something which I don’t like to hear. Such words belittle people. We all have an exceptionally good title ‘Indian’. What else can substitute such a beautiful word?</p> <p>Muslims are increasingly feeling insecure here…<br /> India is a place where everyone can live in harmony. Sikh population makes up only a percentage of the country’s population. But the nation saw a Sikh President at the Rashtrapati Bhavan. All Indians are proud of A P J Abdul Kalam. Whether he reads the Quran or Bible or Gita is immaterial.<br />  How do you look at what happened to Stan Swamy?<br /> If human rights violations have happened in his case, it is not fair. At that age, what was he going to do against those in power? No one should be alienated in our country.<br />  The Christian community has always been a vote bank of the Congress for quite some time. However, there has been a shift in this in the last two elections…<br /> People are free to choose for their good. Anything that’s beneficial to the state should be done. Let them vote for the good. Why should we get ourselves branded?</p> <p>But the Catholic Church had taken an aggressive stand during the ‘Liberation struggle’…<br /> There was a reason then. But why should we be enemies on a permanent basis? There is no need to remain stagnant over a matter that is done and dusted. Does that mean Church is no longer anti-Communist? Why should the Church keep a permanent enemy?</p> <p>So, you mean to say the Church supports no political party?<br /> If someone does something good for society, why should we be reluctant to acknowledge them, irrespective of whether it’s Pinarayi Vijayan, Oommen Chandy or Narendra Modi?  <br />  The BJP has been trying to make inroads into Kerala and for that it needs support from the Christian community. Last week former DGP Jacob Thomas told us that Christians would vote for the BJP…<br /> It is his evaluation. I am no one to counter or substantiate it.</p> <p>But is there an increasing affinity towards the BJP among the faithful?<br /> I believe that we should be open to talks with anyone.</p> <p>So there is no untouchability factor against BJP now?<br /> The Church doesn’t practise untouchability against anyone. We have always been here. Our ancestors are Hindus. That’s a historical fact. We are Indian Christians and we have been living together in harmony for 2,000 years.</p> <p>Earlier it was there… The question is whether there is a change in that mindset…<br /> That’s what I am trying to make clear. Earlier, we maintained a distance with communists. This was done vis-à-vis the BJP too. But nowadays, no political party is untouchable for us. We don’t keep anyone separate from us.</p> <p>It is said the Muslim community is being increasingly made to feel like they are outsiders…<br /> That very thought itself is not Indian…When India and Pakistan play a match, I will only root for India. As a Cardinal, I am part of the Pope’s advisory board who is the head of the Vatican, an independent nation. But I am a citizen of India first. I salute the Indian flag first.</p> <p>There have been instances of churches being attacked in North India…<br /> There could be some issues in some villages in India. But in the name of that, we will not hoist any flag other than the Indian flag. That’s our identity.</p> <p>So you see no issues in communicating with the BJP…<br /> I believe that dialogue is the only solution. When my predecessor Major Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios spoke to RSS leaders at Aluva, it created a lot of hue and cry. But then he asked, “Is there any way other than engaging in a dialogue?” Jesus himself had said, “to go and talk.”</p> <p>We can see a shift on the part of the Catholic Church regarding the BJP…<br /> Once, Jana Sangh had only two MPs. Now the country is ruled by the very party. If we don’t talk to them about what we are or what we have been doing, how will they know? If the rulers don’t know what we are or what we have been doing for the country’s good, how would that translate into the good of society? We are ready for dialogue. Situations have changed. We should realise it.</p> <p>Has there been any progress due to such dialogues?<br /> The Prime Minister went and met the Pope in the Vatican as a result of these communications.</p> <p>When the UDF was in power, the Church had good access to the government. Do you get the same access with the LDF too?<br /> We have the same access with the LDF too. We have the freedom to speak to the chief minister directly on our issues. He’s very attentive. And he has the willpower to take decisions and implement them.</p> <p>There have been demands that appointments in aided colleges should be handed over to the PSC. How do you look at it?<br /> These institutions came into existence based on certain conditions. It should be followed. Unlike in government institutions, the entire administrative expenditure is met by the management. The government has not been providing any financial help, other than salaries.</p> <p>It’s Christmas Sunday… What’s your message to the readers?<br /> The core of Christmas is that God decided to reveal himself. The word used for the purpose is Emmanuel – God is with us. It’s like the Indian concept of ‘Aham Brahmasmi’.  When God is with us, there will be major changes in our mindset and attitude. So Christmas is for all to celebrate…<br />